Posts by Sea Breeze

21

Examples of Watchtower flawed interpretation of Bible passages?

by Vanderhoven7 in

asking jehovah’s witnesses to interpret specific passages is a great way to demonstrate their interpretive abuse.

got any clear examples?.

Sea Breeze

Could the "slave" be illustrative of a group? Perhaps, but that does not mean it's them.

@Journeyman

In the King James Version, which is what Witchtower used for over 75 years, the indefinte article was used - "Who really is a faithful and wise servant"?

It was a general rhetorical question. To try and make it sound specific, the WT zeroed in on the next sentence what contained the phrase "that servant". Then, they would pull out some mumbo jumbo about how the facts show that Charles Rusell is "THAT SERVANT". (repeat over and over)

Later when they printed their own bible, and after Rusell died, they added the definite article "the" to the question to make it appear specific.

"Who really is the faithful and discrete slave". They then pull the same gimmick and say something like all available evidence points the the governing body of JW's as the composite faithful and discreed slave , yada, yada, yada.

Lots of uneducated, unsaved people fall for these word scams.

A simple question meant for self introspection for believers, was turned into a wild goose chase after a false christ. People are very easily deceived.

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince someone they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

1

Why Did God Become Man?

by Sea Breeze in

jw
friends

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy2ptaan9pc&ab_channel=theslothmonkey.

.

do you think the explanation by paul harvey is plausible?.

Sea Breeze

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY2pTAAn9pc&ab_channel=theslothmonkey

Do you think the explanation by Paul Harvey is plausible?

21

Examples of Watchtower flawed interpretation of Bible passages?

by Vanderhoven7 in

asking jehovah’s witnesses to interpret specific passages is a great way to demonstrate their interpretive abuse.

got any clear examples?.

Sea Breeze

Watchtower likes to play games by changing definitions of words and phrases. They highlight something and repeat it over and over until it takes on an altered meaning. and a life of its own. This is how they created a false Christ figure in Russell; by putting a spin on a simple phrase: "THAT SERVANT".

The WT used the KJV until they replaced it with their own bible in the 1960's.

Mt. 24: 45-47 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

THE MAKING OF A FALSE CHRIST FIGURE:

“The Lord Jesus, in his great prophetic statement in Matthew 24:45-47, made known the fact that at the end of the age he would be present and would have a special servant whom he would “make ruler over all his house to give meat in due season to the household.” For many years Christian people of all denominations have been looking for the manifestation of that promised servant. For several years some have recognized, and now many more are recognizing, that Pastor Russell is that servant.” -The Watchtower November 1, 1917 page 319.

“The view generally held, that Pastor Russell himself was the “faithful and wise servant” of Matthew 24:45-47, created considerable difficulty for some years. The insistence that Russell had been “that servant” led many to regard Russell in what amounted actually to creature worship. They believed that all the truth God had seen fit to reveal to his people had been revealed to Russell, and now nothing more could be brought forth because “that servant” was dead.” -Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose page 69.

“There was some resistance from those who were not progressive and who did not have a vision of the work that lay ahead. Some insisted on living in the past, in the time of Pastor Russell, when the brothers in general had viewed him as the sole channel of Scriptural enlightenment. It was the published and accepted thought down till 1927 that he was “that servant” of Matthew 24:45.” -Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose page 95.

“Jesus clearly indicated that during his second presence he would have amongst the church a faithful and wise servant, through whom he would give to the household of faith meat in due season. The evidence is overwhelming concerning the Lord’s second presence, the time of the harvest, and that the office of “that servant” has been filled by Brother Russell. This is not man worship by any means. It matters not who Charles T. Russell was-whether he was a doctor, a hod-carrier or a seller of shirts. St. Peter was a fisherman: St. Paul a lawyer. But these matters are immaterial. above all, these men were the chosen vessels of the Lord.

Regardless of his earthly avocation, above all, Brother Russell was the Lord’s servant. Then to repudiate him and his work is equivalent to a repudiation of the Lord, upon the principle heretofore announced. -The Watchtower May 1, 1922 page 132.

"And just like that, Jesus was gone".

Forrest Gump (character) - Wikiwand

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

Not sure of your point Raimundo.

But, Jesus was not begotten in eternity past as a creation called The Son. He was begotten when he was made flesh:

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. - John 1

So what does begotten (monogenes) mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship."

Jesus is unique, one of a kind; being both fully man and begotten by God sharing his essence - thus fully God.

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

@Halcon -

If his heart is right, no. The evidence of that is if that person continues to grow by the leadings of the Holy Spirit. But can a person believe Jesus is the Son of God and still have a heart "not right before God"? That's the question here.That would be a tragedy I'm sure you would agree.

Acts 8

13 Simon [Magnus] himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw....

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.

Some people come to Jesus with weird motives; motives that are something other than complete surrender to Jesus as the highest authority, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. If they belong to Christ, the Holy Spirit will get them on track in due time. If not, they will continue to embrace heresies, looking for loopholes, escape clauses, and pursuing personal recognition of one sort or another.

Some very early church fathers stated that Simon Magnus went on to found Gnosticism, a system of heretical, anti-christian thought that continues to this day.

But hey, he believed Jesus was the Son of God.

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

Seabreeze I believe you are well intentioned. However, there's nothing in the scriptures that
state that if we reject the tripartite nature of man it means we lose salvation.

@Halcon

Your statement assumes that a person already has salvation, and might lose it. Aside from children who are unable to comprehend the word of God, no one starts out saved.

Since we are saved by grace through faith, shouldn't we be sure we have faith in the right Jesus to forgive sins? What if a person has faith in the wrong Jesus? Like a Jesus the Mormons invented? Or, the angelic Jesus Russell invented? Or, maybe a person has faith in a church or their good works. Will that save a person? At what point does "faith" deviate far enough from the biblical Jesus that he states on Judgment Day, " I never knew you"?

The scriptural description of man having three parts, each with personhood (soul, body & spirit) allows a framework for Jesus to be who he claimed to be : fully man & fully God.... both created and uncreated.

JW's would never think of bowing down to Jesus and asking him to save them. For them, that would be creature worship because they think he is an angel. They also conviently believe that there is not any kind of personhood assigned to our souls or spirits. They believe that when they die, they atone for their own sins and if they get it wrong and are not resurrected, no big deal. This is I suspect the real object of faith for many.

The bible consistently uses pronouns and attributes personhood to the spirit, body and soul of a man. If we choose not to believe God, on this issue, what else will we not believe God about? Do we just forget about how Jesus told Nicodemas three times that a person must be born again? Do we just brush off the offer for forgiveness of sins in the new covenant in Mt. 16; 27-28 BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD US it isn't meant for you?

In other words, can a person be saved by a faith that listens to another voice other than God, with an object of faith other than who Jesus claimed to be? So, it is all related.

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. Firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

The phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the firstborn of God:

(see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase "firstborn of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence.

Right after the "firstborn" usage, scripture says this: Col. 1: 18b-19 - that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.

PRE-EM'INENCE, noun

1. Superiority in excellence; distinction in something commendable; as pre-eminence in honor or virtue; pre-eminence in eloquence, in legal attainments or in medical skill.

The preeminence of christianity to any other religious scheme--

2. Precedence; priority of place; superiority in rank or dignity.

That in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:1.

Painful preeminence! yourself to view

Above life's weakness and its comforts too.

3. Superiority of power or influence.

Obviously, scripture wants us to know that Jesus is God in the flesh. Using the chart in my previous post, it is easy to see how "Jesus the man" is sometimes referred to in scripture, and sometimes "Jesus as God" is referred to, because he is BOTH.

That is why the name of Jesus is HIGHER than the name of Jehovah: "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name"

Just look it up in Websters dictionary:

FIRST'-BORN, adjective

1. First brought forth; first in the order of nativity; eldest; as the first-born son.

2. Most excellent; most distinguished or exalted. Christ is called the first-born of every creature. Colossians 1:1.

Heretics love to take scripture out of context and change definitions of words, imagining they have some special insight and decerrnment others don't have.

@SlimBoyFat: Are you still rejecting the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" Jesus offered in Mt. 26: 27-28 ?

If so, then you have no basis for salvation what so ever. This is what is driving your rejection of the tri-partite nature of man, and by extension the deity of Christ.

Please explain your disobedience to Christ's command to accept his offer for forgiveness of sins. Because, it appears to me to be totally insane to be outside of the clutches of Watchtower and still display such open rebellion against the authority of Christ, while claiming belief in God.

33

Do JWs see the org falling apart?

by ThomasDam21 in

i have been away from the jw cult for many years.

i don't have any family i talk to that are in it.

so i don't know if the jws as a whole are seeing the cult fall apart or if they or the majority of them are head in the sand la la la the end is neigh.

Sea Breeze

The word I'm hearing is that many members believe the org is gasping for air with appointing 18 year olds as elders, no field service requirement to speak of and the dumbed down meetings.

But the theology is still appealing to unsaved people:

1. You get to work for your salvation and that feeds your pride - it feels good.

2. No need to trust in Jesus, when you die you paid for your own sins.

3. If it is all BS, you will not be conscious forever separated from God.

The JW religion has been described as the perfect religion for the unsaved, hard-working man.

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

Wow, I leave for a couple weeks and the old "problems" get resurrected again!

Jehovah's Witnesses and many former JW's frame this issue to try and make it seem like there is no answer. I wish people would just get wise to the misdirection and stop debating the wrong issue. It is very simple.

The problem that heretics have is not the nature of Jesus. The problem they have is refusing to accept the nature of man.

Scripture is clear that man is a tripartite being made up of a body, a soul, and a spirit.

Genesis 1:26–27 indicates that God created mankind distinct from all the other creatures. Scripture clearly teaches that man is intended to experience intimate relationship with God, and, therefore, He created us as a unity of both material (physical) and immaterial (spiritual) aspects (Ecclesiastes 12:7, Matthew 10:28, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 4:16; 7:1, James 2:26).

The material component of humans is obviously that which is tangible and temporal: the physical body. The immaterial aspects are intangible: soul, spirit, intellect, will, conscience, mind, emotions, etc. These exist unendingly beyond the lifespan of the physical body.

See 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12

For many people, the idea of being conscious for eternity separated from God and all the good stuff he made is more than ample reason to suppress this foundational teaching of Christ; the truthfullness of which is guaranteed by God's own blood, and Jesus' predicted self-resurrrection from the dead. People settle into a self-deception of trying to be a good person and hope for the best. The false reasoning allows people to falsely conclude that if they got it all wrong, they will just cease to exist and there will be no cost for this choice. It will all be as if they never existed eventually.

Suppression is a very powerful psychological tool the mind uses to deal with trauma, like the denial stage with a cancer diagnosis for example.

It is this suppression that prevents people from even being able to contemplate the idea of Jesus being both God and Man, and not either / or as unbelievers try over and over to frame the arugment.

The terrifying prospect of being conscious for eternity alienated from God is what drives Trinity debates, not the concept. The concept is easily explained when a person simply believes what God said about the nature in which he made us.

21

When JW's say they are 'In the truth'...

by Ron.W. in

where did this phrase 'in the truth' come from?.

it's been around as long as i can remember.

is it from the time they were promoting 'the truth shall make you free' book back in 1943?

Sea Breeze

This phrase is a title of Jesus when he claimed to be The Way, The Truth & The Life.

By referencing the organization as the Truth instead of Jesus, it is a subtle way to make themselves a type of Savior.

Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. - Mark 13: 6